ORIGINAL INDUCTION
ORIGINAL INDUCTION
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SECOND INDUCTION - 2002
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THIRD INDUCTION - 2008
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| UPDATE 1/13/2009: Holy Shit, the hall of fame page hasn't been updated in 6 years. OK I'm giving it a makeover now, since a lot has changed since then (me having no time to update my website being the chief change, but I guess that's a good thing). |
| All albums on this hall of fame are the cream of the crop. But some
cream are higher than others. ....ok thats just a saying left over from the old days of this site. But what I really want to say is that this Hall of Fame is not your run of the mill best of the best etc. Obviously I dont think this collection here is the greatest music of all time, otherwise Exile on Main St. would certainly be here and the Cranberries wouldnt for example. This is more of a "albums that meant a lot to Roland at sometime or another". A musical anthology as seen through Roland's childhood, or whatever. Oh and hell yeah Exile will be here one day. so there.
I'm still using the George Staroskin rating system (see my Music review page for details), with the minor tweak that I don't automatically give a 10 to the Artist's best work. Instead my scale is more absolute, at least as far as my biased opinions allow. Also note that currently the lowest cumulative score in this HOF is a 12. Well duh, you're walking in the hall of fame. For the shitty albums go to the Music Review section. The score is only listed here for reference. There is no strict criteria regarding an album's induction and its corresponding score. They are simply inducted in accordance to their importance in Roland's history. that's it folks.
RULES 1. Greatest Hits are not to be inducted. If you cant make an
album that can stand on its own, you're OUT, sorry. |
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The Beatles - LET IT BE Issued: 1970 When people ask me what is my favourite Beatles album, I first remark to myself what an absurd question that can be. Then I usually reply with Let It Be. It probably is my favourite Beatle album, if there is such a thing concerning the Beatles (isnt the magical thing about the Beatles the fact that ALL their albums are 10s?) I actually would probably rather listen to "Let it be..naked" today, but I am not sure if replacing one Beatles album with a newer one is a blasphemy to the original. Either way, if I'm ever stranded on a desert island*, and I were stuck with any version of Let it Be, I think I could be happy. |
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The Beatles - ABBEY ROAD Issued:1970 The Beatles' last album. Just imagine, their next album would have had My Sweet Lord, Imagine, and Maybe I'm Amazed on it. This was surely the pinnacle of the Beatles' career, and the output shows it. I've actually made a pilgrimage to St John's Wood in London, where this picture is shot and walked the crosswalk, but there was no one there to take my picture. I guess that's cause for a revisitation. |
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The Beatles - WHITE ALBUM Issued:1968 It used to be that I knocked a point off for Revolution #9, but strangely that track has actually grown on me. The best part of this double album is by far its diversity. |
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The Beatles - LIVE AT THE BBC Issued:1993 I distinctly remember being so excited about this album coming out. I was in 10th grade; my history teacher and I would debate about the Beatles. Once again, I got these as tapes, because at that time shelling out 30 bucks for the cd was an unreachable luxury for me. (I think the only cd I did own at this time was Wings Greatest, which was a bday present) No other record captures the raw sound the early Beatles had. (check out Paul screaming on 'Oh! My Soul') It still blows the later Anthology series out of the water. |
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The Beatles - MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR
Issued:1967 I used to wear a hippie looking T-Shirt of this album cover, (everyone else seems to despise it).
I love the album, and I'm actually glad its so short. Its more
like an extension of Sgt. Pepper, which
itself just barely missed the cut for the hall of fame. (for now, anyway).
All You Need Is Love used to be my theme song, until supplanted
by Love, Reign O'er Me, from Quadrophenia
Album Rating:10 |
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Tom Petty - WILDFLOWERS Issued:1995 One of the first Tom Petty albums I got, and of course its a little biased because first of all I was like 17, (which is musical golden age, is it not?) and second of all I went to the Hollywood Bowl (my first time) within a month or 2 of this and he played this album live. Objectively, this would still rank high as one of Tom's best. But nothing is objective on these charts. We gave up objectivity loooong ago on this site. |
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The Kinks - LOLA vs. POWERMAN AND THE
MONEYGOROUND Issued:1970 My first Kinks album was 'Kinks Live - the Road'. Ain't that just crazy? I mean, NOBODY bought that album. Well anyway, the important thing is it inspired me to get more..and basically I just picked this one off the shelf randomly. Boy was I lucky. Apeman, Denmark Street, and the Moneygoround are trademarks of this Kinks period. Recently many tracks from this album were featured in the Darjeeling Limited, which is also one of my favourite films. |
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The Kinks ...ARE THE VILLAGE GREEN PRESERVATION
SOCIETY Issued:1968 this one started out a sleeper, meaning at first you don't even really like the album, except for one or two songs, but you keep listening to it anyway, and by the 20th time you're just screwed because you cant possibly listen to anything else. By the 50th time youre getting really sick of it, but its a "good sick" feeling (I imagine thats what being hooked on cigarettes is like), and you still cant listen to anything else because no matter what else you listen to you cant get 'Do You Remember Walter' or 'Monica' or 'The Last of the Steam Powered Trains' (with an EXCELLENT harp solo by the way) out of your head!! This one ended up I think 2 or 3 months straight topping the charts, which is an unparalleled feat (Pinkerton comes close, though). If I ever made it into a band, 'Village Green' would be the first song we would cover. |
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The Kinks - MUSWELL HILLBILLIES
Issued:1971 This is where the Kinks top themselves. As much as I raved
about the Village Green Preservation Society, this one is EVEN BETTER!!!
This album was the sole catalyst for a record half year straight #1 on the
charts, since they also served to inspire me to buy Village Green. Alcohol
and Holiday are some of the best songs they ever made in my opinion.
This album is English Country, Music Hall, and American Folk all rolled into
one. Its probably made even better by the fact that the
Kinks left this style as abruptly as they found it, making this their only
'Country' album. (ok, maybe there is some jazz in there too, who
knows). Album
Rating:10 |
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Wings - WILD LIFE Issued:1973 This album is a perfect example of how the so called 'critics' should all hand their job on a silver platter to me, because they all pan this one. Good thing you found me, cause they know nothing. The sound here is still raw enough to have a Beatles feel, and even Linda's harmonies are a plus here (where else would you say that?). Paul still felt young enough to yell through some of the songs, a la Oh Darling. (Oh Woman, Oh Why, and Mumbo). He should do more of that, it works. I also like Dear Friend, although power ballads are not normally what I would attribute to Paul's strengths, but again, it all works here. A well paced, delightful album. I would argue the BEST Wings period album (yes, even better than Band on the Run) |
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Wings - VENUS AND MARS
Issued:1974 I got this as a vinyl from Patti, and I transferred it to tape. I don't
think it would be on this list if I had a cd player in my car at that
time, because 99% of its playing time was in my cassette deck on my
weekend drives to Palm Springs. The things I love most about this one
are Paul's ability to play songs as though they were set in the 20's or 30's.
I love very old tunes, and although they are extremely hard to come by
these days, some of these tracks will give you an idea. Of course all of
this album is typical Paul; light rockers and ballads mostly, but a hell
of a lot of melody on each one. The title track and 'Rock Show' are the
best, although the first side as a whole is enough to qualify this album
on this list. |
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Paul McCartney - RAM Issued:1972 Ahhh, here's a different story. I bought this knowing nothing except
that Uncle Albert / Admiral Hasley was on it, and being that the rest of
the material is not very famous individually, but at the same time being
outstandingly good, after 4 or 5 times it was unstoppable as continuous
play in James' and my dorm room. I still get a kick out of Smile Away, and
Monkberry Moon Delight. I think there is something very English
about this album, maybe he's been listening to some Kinks, who knows…
This album is still pre-Wings. Its his second solo, the first being McCartney. Which basically means that
you can't even distinguish these tunes from any in his later Beatle
period, because it's the same Paul, only 1 or 2 years away. Any of these
songs could have made Abbey Road, if not for timing. |
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Paul McCartney - RUN DEVIL RUN Issued:1999 One of the greatest compilation Rock and Roll albums I ever heard. I guess Lennon's Rock and Roll is good too, but those are more of what you would expect from a rock covers album. These, you would NOT expect. If you want to hear what Paul at age 60 screaming sounds like, listen to She Said Yeah. That song actually inspired me to pick up playing the piano again. (as did Coquette). Movie Magg inspired me to finally buy some Carl Perkins albums. Even the Elvis covers seemed to rock more than Elvis did. Paul actually played this one beginning to end at the Cavern. What I wouldn't have given to be there. |
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Paul McCartney - OFF THE GROUND
Issued:1993 OK lets be honest, almost EVERY McCartney album COULD be here. Flowers in the Dirt could be here. Band on the Run SHOULD be here. (ok, maybe not Press to Play. In George Staroskin's words "The lowest moment in Rock history") So why is Off the Ground here? Because it plays an important role in my life, and I think it represents a pivotal moment in Paul's career. Its an extremely strong album, following an extremely dismal period of Paul's recording career (Did I mention Press to Play?) I agree that Flowers in the Dirt is a.... "Powerful" is the word I like to use.... comeback album, but this one is even better, and stylistically it returns Paul to the kind of rock he can be good at. Mistress and Maid, is the kind of thing I'm talking about. And it doesn't even have a chorus, so that's even Dylan-esque songwriting for you. |
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The Cranberries - TO THE FAITHFUL DEPARTED
Issued: 1997? Originally I was going to induct both this one and their first album, but I thought Shit, I cant induct TWO Cranberries albums to the prestigious RolandsPlace Hall of FameTM, thats just crazytalk. I might as well put the rest of the Beatles albums here as well. (Maybe I should impose a one-album limit for 3 star Artists in the Hall of Fame. Hmm something to think about... ) So I had to choose. Really they are about the same strength
for me. Ironically, though this is supposed to the 'sad album', all
the sad songs just come out beautiful, and it always ends up lifting me up.
Even the John Lennon song, though sad and true, is fun to sing to. The
only real depressing song on here, and by the way also the most beautiful,
is War Child.
Electric Blue is by far my favourite though, with its endless "na
nee no" chorus. Album
Rating:9 |
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Squirrel Nut Zippers - PERENNIAL FAVORITES
Issued: 1998 I love the Squirrel Nut Zippers. It epitomizes the kind of jazz I love and that is too hard to find. (20s hot jazz). They also get so much credit on my charts because no one else quite plays their style of music. Who plays big band hall these days, mixed with a little rockabilly? Brian Setzer? No, much too generic in style. Cherry Poppin Daddies, Royal Crown Revue? No, they stick to a harder style. Chazz Cats? Too mellow. None of the aforementioned have the range and willingness to diversify that the Zippers do. If you are new to SNZ, you should probably start with either of their first 2 albums (Hot or Inevitable), and if you like them, then get this one next. |
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The Rolling Stones - STICKY FINGERS
Issued:1971 This is the album that got me into the Stones. Both sides are so
different, and yet unparalleled in their own way (yeah I'm speaking in
vinyl terms, what are you gonna do about it?) They were really in
their prime here, seemingly unable to write a bad song. Also, my
nomination for most underrated Stones song is on here: Sway. Sister Morphine is
also class; what a slow rocker that has a groove you don't want to stop!
But hey, they're all good: Wild Horses, Moonlight Mile,
Dead Flowers and the obvious ones Brown Sugar and
Bitch. I think this one would rank up there with Let It Be as the 2
best albums of all time. |
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The Rolling Stones - SOME GIRLS
Issued:1978 (cont'd from Sticky Fingers review)....HOWEVER, Some Girls is not far behind. I really don't see much difference between this one and Sticky Fingers. Much like Revolver and Rubber Soul are almost like side A and side B, these 2 are also similar. I must say though, that unlike Sticky Fingers, I can single out my favourite song: Miss You. This record, along with Sticky Fingers, got me into the Stones. Back in the day when my car only had a tape deck, I had to transfer these records onto tape, as these were mainly car tunes for me. I remember Patti and I went to the '98 Stones concert at Dodger Stadium, and everybody sang Miss You. We sat in the extreme nose bleed section, if there is such a thing. Another note, anyone who can play Beast of Burden on guitar is qualification for my friendship.
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The Rolling Stones - EMOTIONAL RESCUE
Issued:1974 Everyone, I mean EVERYONE slams this album for some reason. I guess
they don’t like the idea of Stones going disco or something. Yeah, it’s a
little departure, but that doesn’t mean they can’t pull it off. I mean, at
least its not a departure like Her Satanic Majesty’s Request,
right? I love this album. It kicks right off rocking with Dance, I
think one of their best songs ever. And the rest of the first side is
still traditional Stones rock and roll. Only one song has a hint of disco,
and its Emotional Rescue, which I think is actually a very decent song.
The feature of this album though, is another one of their unknown,
unappreciated but truly classic slow rockers: Down in the Hole. I’d
put it in a greatest hits collection anytime. |
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The Rolling Stones - LET IT BLEED
Issued:1969 OK so here’s another one that I cant say enough good things about. This would rank right up there with Let it Be, and Sticky Fingers. How many all time classics are on here? 6? 7? EVERY FRIKKIN SONG is a greatest hit. Gimme Shelter had such an effect on me that when I heard it first on a radio, I knew I had to find it. So I spent 3 months looking for a song called “its just a shot away”, before I finally found Gimme Shelter. (hey there was no internet in those days, ok?) I tell you, it was like finding gold. And You Can’t Always Get What You Want? C’mon, is that not the greatest song ever??? Country Honk is great too, I think I actually prefer this to Honky Tonk Women because of the fiddle alone. Its kind of a shame its so short though. They could probably put their filler here too and do no wrong. |
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Green Day - DOOKIE Issued:1994 Yeah yeah I know, spare me. You know who you are. The snobs for whom the inclusion of this record disqualifies my entire list. Well you're obviously missing the point; go back to your Brian Eno or whatever and leave me alone and don't come crying back to me when you've included something like the Clash on your list. This is not going to be a "defend Green Day" review, however, some words of note: First of all, I think Green Day are more talented than they are given credit for. They have clearly done their rock homework, as covers of Kinks and The Who suggest. They also delivered a Rock Opera in true Who style, which is more than I can say about, well just about anyone else in this hall of fame. I may even raise their rating to a 4 if they put out a few more of those. And When it comes down to it, I'm just as fine selecting this album in my hall of fame than American Idiot, because this is where it all started (I actually may like Kerplunk even more, so I guess I'm defaulting to the masses on this one. Or rather succumbing to the conclusion suggested by the shift in public attitudes towards "punk"# music of the 90s. I like the shift and agree that it was necessary in the name of the rock music cycle: basic raw energy begets sophisticated rock music begets artsy ultra sophisticated rock (?) music begets basic raw energy again. # - I put "punk" in quotes because I've never bought in to the theory that Green day are punk; they are as "rock" as can be, when strictly examining music only). |
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Garbage - VERSION 2.0 Issued:1998 Geez I'm so torn on this one. During the initial inductions to this hall of fame, I knew there should be at least one Garbage album here. For years I was torn whether to include this one, or their first album. I'm still torn for that matter, but now that the rules (see top) have been incorporated I'm going to try to stick to them (Rule 2 came about almost solely based on whether I should replace this entry with their original album, but no, i chose this one and here it will stay). That's not to say that I don't think the original one is just a little superior to this. At least the 'trademark Garbage sound' is probably better defined there. But for whatever reason, I just like this one better overall. (I also really like their 3rd album. Their 4th is crap). I guess my point is that if someone were to sabotage this page and replace this album with Beautiful Garbage or Garbage, I'd be ok with that (but not so much the sabotaging part). I also don't have a chance to do this very often anymore, but I distinctly remember taking this one home, putting on the super good headphones and taking a few hours to soak it in. I think it was that they took so long to release a follow up that we fans were starved to the point of giddiness when this finally came out. |
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Roxette - CRASH! BOOM! BANG! Issued:1995 Yikes, another tough review coming up. I could already hear the masses approaching me with pitchforks when I put this picture up. I guess Roxette is a tough subject for me because Americans werent exposed to their later, more evolved, music where the influences (Blondie was their main influence) were shining through more. Crash Boom Bang, as is the case with all the later Roxette releases,
was picked up by me in Hungary as a cassette tape, listening to it on the plane ride back. There is very little filler on this
album, and I think it was here (or possibly on Tourism) that
Roxette grew out of its catchy pop classics as found on Look
Sharp! and Joyride, and started to write melodious, thoughtful
tunes. Even though Per always did and always will write all the songs, I
think on here it sounds as if there was a lot of collaboration involved. It kindof flows between rockers and ballads so that it will
never get boring, reminding you of a Beatle record in a way. Pity it
wasn’t realeased in America. |
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Roxette - TOURISM Issued:1993 Tourism, I think, is the last Roxette album to have a genuine, nationwide release in America. Lucky for me, cause I was about 15 at the time, and would not have had the resources to order it online from the UK or anything. OK, so there are 2 strong reasons this album belongs in the HOF. First of all, the album is worth buying solely for the version of It Must Have Been Love featured here. Second, while I’m not that big a fan on including live songs with new songs on a new album, the live ones on here are done VERY well. All in all, my nomination for most underappreciated album. |
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Oasis - DEFINITELY MAYBE Issued:1992 OK now we’re talking about a truly landmark album. Both for me personally, as it introduced me to Oasis, and for the band itself, as it introduced Oasis to the world. For those that like the Oasis sound: loud, crashing guitars, hidden melodies under the noise, sometimes Beatle-esque lyrics and parodies, and just a lot of fun, this always was, and still is their greatest album (although Morning Glory comes close.) If you are new to Oasis, this is definitely (not maybe) the place to start - and stay there. I must have listened to this 20 times straight on cassette (is there a theme in the hall of fame? cassette = bound for HOF?), thanks to Jennie, and realized that the question of Blur vs. Oasis was a tough one indeed. To those of you who don’t know what I’m talking about, look up why a 45 minute single of the Gallagher bros. actually made #1 on the UK chart. Those brothers are the creative force behind Oasis, who by the way are a terrific band to see live. |
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Oasis - WHAT'S THE STORY MORNING GLORY
Issued:1995 I wrote the "one album per 3 star artist rule" only recently, so Oasis was grandfathered in, otherwise I would have been forced to cut this one, since nothing can touch Definitely Maybe. With your first 2 albums as good as this, its easy to fall into the "how can they fail" category, and the anticipation for the 3rd album draws unreasonable expectations. Personally I liked their 3rd album, but it would never make it into this hall of fame. |
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Blur - Blur (White Album) Issued:1996 I cant get away without an Oasis comparison in this paragraph, so here it is. While Oasis made their fame trying to be the Beatles, they see to try too hard, while Blur seem to have a detectable Beatles influence in their music itself. Oasis, ironically, are more like the Stones. However, great as early Blur records are (honorable mention to Modern Life is Rubbish), I’ll take this White Album anytime. There’s electronica, which basically sucks unless you're trippin out, then there’s Blur’s and Elastica’s version of Rock/Electronica, which totally kicks ass. If this is what Rock has evolved to, that’s fine by me. Song 2 may be overplayed now, but On Your Own, M.O.R. and Death of a Party are better anyway. I’m putting this right up there in the Ultra High Cream category, and that’s where its gonna stay!! |
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The Who - QUADROPHENIA Issued:1972 OK, so the Who’s mark upon the Rock world are their string of infectuous hit singles, from My Generation to We Wont Get Fooled Again, and 2 excellent Rock Operas. In my opinion though, Tommy just cant make it here (well, maybe one day). In my opinion, if you love Tommy, you should love Quadrophenia even more. What's the matter with you. And as a matter of fact, Quadro is EVEN LONGER than Tommy, so there is more to love, too. I also like the idea of each band member having a different theme, and I think it suits them well. |
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Weezer - PINKERTON Issued:1997 Here I’m gonna go again, gushing over another album. Well think what you want. Then make your own web page. This one is SO good (although SO short) that I doubt Weezer will ever top themselves after this one. Not surprisingly, the so called ‘critics’ hated this album, which proves again they dont know Shit. Weezer have released what, like 6 albums now, and none (except maybe the first) have come close to this one. The old adage is true: the more miserable the Artist's personal life is, the better the music they release (see Tom Petty's Echo for more along these lines). As a side note, NO OTHER ALBUM in my chart history has stayed near the top as this one has…to my recollection it was something like 5 months straight that it collected at least a point…..I think I drove my roommate crazy. |
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Blondie - Plastic Letters Issued:1978? The first Blondie Album I got. Well actually I had the Best of, from BMG for at least 3 years before that (oh BMG, how I miss thee...), but I never really listened to it until late 2001. I loved it all so much, I just bought one off the shelf, the first one I saw. What makes Plastic Letters so great (not amazingly, this is consistent with a lot of the best ones, even though it may seem trivial) is the opening song. The opening song is KEY, folks. And FYI, you don't know what sexy is until you hear Debbie singing in French. If you love this album, you MUST get that "Best of Blondie" DVD and see the Detroit 442 video. It, to me, personifies what Blondie was, much more than the Heart of Glass stuff they were known for.
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Blondie - Parallel Lines Issued:1978 Still the Best Blondie Album ever. Again, get that "Best of Blondie" DVD and see the video for Picture This. Note also that Eat to the Beat, their next album, got shafted because its basically the same in strength as this one (its just more of the same, really), but I thought 3 Blondies in the HOF were pushing it. |
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Rolling Stones - Black and Blue Issued: This is probably my all time favourite Stones album these days. At least its the first one I reach for when I need some classic Stones. Am I bothered by the sheer amount of Rolling Stones in this hall of fame? Not particularly. I always wondered why they never did another song in the style of Melody. There could be whole albums devoted to swampy piano blues and I'd love it. Also for a great alternate version of Memory Motel, get the Stripped Companion bootleg. (Do bootlegs qualify for the HOF? if so, the Stripped Companion might be the first one in here). Overall I think this is an extremely diverse album (only 8 songs though) in terms of style. Seemingly every song here is representative of a different one. |
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Wings - Band on the Run Issued: OK. the famous Band on the Run finally made it here. happy now? Personally, I still like Wild Life better, but I cannot argue this is a highly polished professional masterpiece. I never could, really, I just wanted to make you sweat a little. There are some who think Drink to Me is a knockoff song, being that it rehashes almost every other song on the album, but hey. why not, eh. It ends with 1985 so its all good, man. |
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Bob Dylan -
Blonde on Blonde Issued:1978 The immortal Blonde on Blonde. Doesn't every Dylan fan start with this? Even most non-Dylan fans own this. ok who DOESN'T own this? If you don't I'll send Jack Black to your house and he'll reassure you that...its gonna be ok. I can distinctly remember listening to Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands in a cafe in Redlands (of all places) and thinking what deep musical void my life had been so far without this album. It was all ok after I had Bob. |
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Bob Dylan -
Desire Issued:1978 My favourite Bob Dylan album. And I guess I'm in a boat by myself, because I know of no one else who could say the same. Yet I think the match with Emmylou Harris is what does it for me. She is what was always missing from his band. However, she was only recording with him for this album only. |
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Decemberists -
Her Majesty Issued:1978 The Decemberists are one of the few shining beacons of hope that the future of music holds today. For me the Decemberists journey began with this album, although today I probably would hold The Crane Wife superior to this one, and I hope they surpass themselves every time. |
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Jenny Lewis - Rabbit Fur Coat Issued:1978 Almost Blasphemy! I have inducted a Jenny Lewis solo album before a Rilo Kiley one! This one was very hard to do. Take Offs and Landings by Rilo Kiley came very close but I felt I had to pull the trigger on only one for now. To the layman, a J.L. solo album is not much different than a Rilo Kiley album anyway. I'm no layman but still I think this album is just a notch above the others, even More Adventurous, which probably also deserves to be here. Guess I have a lot of thinking to do. |
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Beatles - Sgt Peppers
Lonely Hearts Club Band Issued:1978 Well its about time, I can hear you say. well what can I tell you, inducting all the Beatles albums in the original induction smacked of favoritism. And now its here. The 2nd top selling album of all time (in UK anyway). (Queen's Greatest is the first. That's cheating if you ask me). |
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Republic - Üzenet Issued:1978 Still the best Republic album, although the new ones they are releasing are also getting better. But most of my favourite songs by them are pretty much all on this one. Honerable mention to A Reklám Után, which was one I bought after my extensive 2003 trip and helped me get through that tough time. ...oh yeah and the case is fucking cool too. for those of you that own it (which is pretty much none of you), you know what I mean. |
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Pink Floyd - Wish You Were
Here Issued: Actually the Pink Floyd album that started it for me (thanks Robert), was the Wall. But....well shit I dont know. The Wall is good too. I guess the thing is that this only has 5 songs, and all are 5 star worthy, so that adds up to a flawless album. Animals is also near flawless. The Wall is....well I dont know WHAT The Wall is. Its a staggering behemoth. A good one though. Note, I've also toyed with the idea that Pink Floyd should be a 5 star band. For now they get 4. convince me, I'm listening. |
* owing to Standard Desert Island RulesTM , one can only choose 10 albums with which they can absolutely not live without. Some say only 5, but that's too harsh, man.